Legislature(2001 - 2002)
02/20/2002 08:08 AM House EDU
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HB 416-REEMPLOYMENT OF RETIRED TEACHERS Number 2178 CHAIR BUNDE announced the final order of business, HOUSE BILL NO. 416, "An Act relating to reemployment of and benefits for retired teachers and principals who participated in retirement incentive programs; and providing for an effective date." Chair Bunde pointed out that the packet contains a bill analysis. [This was the first hearing on HB 416, which was sponsored by the House Special Committee on Education. However, there had been considerable related committee discussion on January 30 and February 6, prior to the bill's introduction.] Number 2211 TERRI CAMPBELL, Legislative Liaison, Office of the Commissioner, Department of Education and Early Development (EED), explained that HB 416 allows teachers who have accepted the retirement incentive program (RIP) to return to classroom duty. The department seeks [committee adoption of] the proposed amendment in committee packets [later adopted as Amendment 1]. She informed members that it not only would allow teachers who've accepted the RIP to return without penalties, but also would include EED [teaching personnel]. MS. CAMPBELL conveyed EED's support for the original legislation, which allows teachers to return to the classroom. She said this allows administrators to extend opportunities to teachers who have accepted the RIP; it provides another hiring tool, especially in shortage areas such as special education. Ms. Campbell added, "We would very much be supportive of schools' being able to capitalize on educators' experience, possibly having them mentor other teachers, because of their extensive classroom experience, as well as utilize them for looking at issues regarding teacher retention." MS. CAMPBELL informed members that EED is interested in the proposed amendment because of the three state-operated schools: Mount Edgecumbe, Alaska Vocational Technical Center (AVTEC) in Seward, and Alyeska Central School. Those employees who work directly with students are [included] with teachers "for purposes of this conversation," she said, and EED is interested in extending that capacity to the department as well. Number 2321 CHAIR BUNDE moved to adopt Amendment 1 for discussion purposes. Amendment 1 reads [original punctuation provided]: Page 1, following line 3: Insert a new bill section to read: "Sec. 1. AS 14.20.135(a) is amended to read: Sec. 14.20.135. Employment of retired teachers because of shortages. (a) The Department of Education and Early Development, a [A] school district or regional educational attendance area that has or anticipates having a shortage of teachers qualified to teach in a particular discipline or specialty may, by resolution, adopt a policy that permits the employment of retired teachers who are qualified to teach in the discipline or specialty in accordance with this section. The policy must describe the circumstances that constitute the shortage. If a shortage of teachers exists as described in the policy, the department, district or attendance area shall notify the administrator of the teachers' retirement system (AS 14.25) that it is hiring retired teachers under this section." Renumber the following bill sections accordingly. Page 1, line 5 Following "(b)" Delete "[A]" Insert "The Department of Education and Early Development, a" Page 2, line 7 Following ", as amended by sec. 1" Insert "and sec. 2" Number 2336 REPRESENTATIVE GREEN objected, also for purposes of discussion. CHAIR BUNDE requested clarification that [Amendment 1] would allow the department to rehire teachers for the three specific schools mentioned. He offered his understanding that it wouldn't come into play as far as hiring someone to work for the department in a nonteaching position. MS. CAMPBELL answered: We would be very interested in exploring that capacity and are actually ... looking at ways and opportunities to extend that ability throughout the department, because we have in past years had quite a bit of trouble hiring some hard-to-fill positions in our education-specialist ranges as we have lost people to retirements and the lure of state service becomes a little less enticing. But we do understand, through legal advice, et cetera, that we may need to do that in other provisions. We're looking at, at this point, if the opportunity presented itself in this particular bill for us to satisfy those needs in our state-operated schools, that that would be a first step for us. Number 2384 CHAIR BUNDE voiced concern that there are "little apples and oranges here." He explained: I think that logic and common sense said that rehired teachers would, obviously, be rehired as beginning teachers and at the lowest step. In these other positions, you may need more flexibility. And so it might be wise to address that as a separate vehicle, because that would be the next question I'm going to bring up to the committee, about the rehiring and should we put some limitations there. CHAIR BUNDE offered his understanding that Amendment 1 would apply to EED's hiring of people to teach in the three schools that the department administers. TAPE 02-8, SIDE B Number 2414 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS mentioned the ideal of allowing both teachers and principals who have accepted the RIP to be rehired; he requested confirmation that [Amendment 1] also includes a teacher who'd retired under the RIP but whom [a district] wants to hire as a principal. MS. CAMPBELL said that is her understanding, but deferred to [Division of] Retirements & Benefits experts. Number 2357 JANET PARKER, Retirement & Benefits Manager, Division of Retirement & Benefits, Department of Administration, answered that this provision would allow that, as it would for any teacher, "as long as they're coming in with the Teachers' Retirement System [TRS]." Therefore, it applies to all members equally. CHAIR BUNDE suggested the "shortcut," then, is that teachers and principals are in the same retirement system. MS. PARKER affirmed that. CHAIR BUNDE remarked that "actuarially" he couldn't imagine there would be a problem. He asked whether there were further questions of Ms. Parker, then thanked her. Number 2304 CHAIR BUNDE asked whether there was further discussion of Amendment 1. He then closed public testimony. REPRESENTATIVE WILSON offered that she believes it is a good amendment, and that it would affect a school district in the district she represents. [She restated the motion to adopt Amendment 1.] Number 2282 CHAIR BUNDE asked Representative Green whether he maintained his objection to Amendment 1. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said no. CHAIR BUNDE announced that without objection, Amendment 1 was adopted. Number 2282 CHAIR BUNDE explained a concern he had with the bill: no provision prohibits having a "good old boy" or "good old girl" network whereby someone could suggest that a teacher retire and then rehire that person at the same salary; the result, in effect, would be a nice raise. CHAIR BUNDE, for the foregoing reasons, suggested the bill should include a provision that says, "Anyone rehired under this is rehired at the beginning salary or ... as a beginning teacher." REPRESENTATIVE GREEN indicated that was his own concern as well. CHAIR BUNDE proposed that with concurrence of the committee, it could be a conceptual amendment. Number 2254 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER remarked: To show you how naive I was, I thought that was a given, one, that the school district would take advantage of that, and ... two, that they didn't have the ability to hire at anything but the beginning step, with a couple of exceptions, in ... past experience. But I think that's a very appropriate [amendment], considering that anyone receiving this is going to be receiving time-and-a-half pay forever. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN added, "Plus the bonus for retiring." Number 2225 REPRESENTATIVE GUESS commented that there are two issues. The first is local control; she said, however, "We're not consistent in that." Second, a person in the private sector retires and gets a pension; if that person then chooses to work for another company, that person would still get market rate for his or her skills, and it wouldn't matter that the person was receiving retirement pay as well. She asked, "Why, in this situation, are we discussing a forced situation of what the market rate should be? Why aren't we letting the local control and the local market decide how much that person is worth?" REPRESENTATIVE PORTER replied: The short answer is that when the local school district pays 100 percent of their cost of doing business, then they should make 100 percent of those decisions. That isn't the case - nowhere close. That's why we are making these decisions. Number 2169 REPRESENTATIVE GUESS said the answer regarding the local issue was fine, but she doesn't understand why the legislature is treating this group of professionals differently than they would be treated in the private sector. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER answered, "Because it's public money." CHAIR BUNDE recalled some "unfortunate experience" involving, to his belief, the Adak school system; he suggested there should have been criminal charges for how the public's money - state money - was treated there. REPRESENTATIVE GUESS asked whether those experiences, then, were affecting this case. "That's OK," she added. "I'm just trying to get where this came from." She acknowledged that there are times when she herself doesn't favor local control. Number 2125 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS suggested keeping in mind that this deals only with teachers who've accepted RIP - "people to whom we have paid substantial amounts of money to go away." He said that is what RIP was all about. Most teachers would get up to $2,000 extra [a year] in retirement benefits for a three-year early retirement. The desire now is to find a way to bring these teachers back without treating them exactly as if they had taken a normal retirement. REPRESENTATIVE GUESS apologized, saying she'd thought it dealt with any retired teacher. REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS replied that he believes this just deals with those who have taken early retirement, which has cost the districts substantial money in order to get them out of those high-paid positions; the idea was to hire people at lower pay. To rehire those people at a high level would be totally opposite what the principle was to begin with. CHAIR BUNDE remarked that as Representative Porter said, common sense probably would dictate that [rehiring teachers at high pay] wouldn't happen. Chair Bunde recalled testimony from the Anchorage district that "that is their policy; they have given people, basically, early retirement bonuses, not a RIP, on the state level, earning retirement bonuses, and then they rehire them at beginning salaries, as you might guess common sense would dictate." He concluded by saying there is always the possibility of mischief; when dealing with public money, it is best to err on the side of caution. Number 2023 DARROLL HARGRAVES, Council of School Administrators, came forward to testify, noting that Representative Stevens had fairly well covered what he had to say. Mr. Hargraves conveyed support for anything that puts teachers in the marketplace so that schools can hire and use them. He agreed there should be concern because these [RIP] teachers have entered retirement at some cost to the state and the school districts. He suggested that for this to be usable, however, "a strike for local control is important here." He explained: Many school districts will look at this and [not] have the shortages that some other district does, and so they will impose that requirement that they come back at a low level on the salary schedule. We're seeing that; that's happening with the other class of retired teachers. On the other hand, some of the places that might make the biggest and best use of this might need the incentive of bringing them in a little higher, within the context of their own policies and negotiated agreements and other controlling factors in the school district. In fact, I can see some districts that would bring some of these people back in at a higher level in order to get them. These are places where the teacher shortage is really critical. So I would ... strike that blow for local control and let that issue rest with the local school districts. I think they can take care of it very nicely. Number 1946 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS returned to an issue brought up earlier regarding hiring somebody at a beginning teacher's salary; he said it seems districts already have a lot of latitude because beginning teachers receive different salaries, based on their qualifications and how badly they may be needed, for example. MR. HARGRAVES said that is correct. For example, a teacher who has taught for more than fifteen years in one district may enter another district with only two years' credit. "That district survives very nicely because they have ... a better teacher pool to choose from," he remarked. "On the other hand, there are districts out there that will give eight or ten years of credit because they're really pushing hard to try to get teachers to come to them." REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS expressed concern about the term "beginning teacher" because of its broadness. Number 1890 REPRESENTATIVE PORTER responded: It was my understanding ... that there are a variety of different, quote, starting salaries, probably for each school district. ... What I think you guys are addressing, and what I'm addressing, is that in that particular school district, that teacher who comes back from the RIP position should not be hired any higher than that same person would have been hired had he or she come in ... on their first day with whatever credentials that they now possess. REPRESENTATIVE GUESS asked whether, then, no years of experience would be credited but the person's education would be. REPRESENTATIVE PORTER suggested it would be just as though the person came from Oregon, for example. REPRESENTATIVE GUESS said it isn't that she disagrees, but is trying to get it defined. She added, "Someone can come in, as Mr. Hargraves said, ... with ten years of experience, and I don't think that's the purpose of the amendment, is to go back to that minimum. Is the minimum coming in, really, at ... the low box of zero and a [bachelor of arts degree], or is it zero years of experience and some more education?" Number 1780 CHAIR BUNDE offered examples. To his understanding, he said, in the Anchorage district a teacher who retired under RIP is credited with no previous experience because of the district's sufficient teacher pool. In Kotzebue, however, a person is allowed to bring in perhaps eight or ten years' experience. REPRESENTATIVE GUESS clarified that Anchorage, in areas of shortage, allows three [years' experience to be credited]. CHAIR BUNDE remarked that Anchorage itself has flexibility, then, but in Kotzebue the person can receive the basic teacher's salary plus eight or ten years of credit. REPRESENTATIVE GREEN added, "But not twenty." REPRESENTATIVE GUESS agreed with the need, if there is an amendment, to clarify what "beginning" means; otherwise, the intent of the committee may not be reflected. "The whole reason to have the amendment was to put some constraints on," she added. CHAIR BUNDE proposed holding the amendment, saying he and Representative Guess would craft an amendment for the committee's consideration at the next hearing. Number 1750 MR. HARGRAVES reminded members that bringing teachers back under this statute will save local school districts money because of the costs of insurance and teacher retirement. "Wherever you bring them in, they're cheaper than ... what they would have been otherwise," he concluded. Number 1736 CARL ROSE, Executive Director, Association of Alaska School Boards, came forward to testify. He informed members that the association supports both HB 416 and [Amendment 1]. He then commented on the [second] proposed amendment. He emphasized that the idea behind RIPs is to create savings, which is where the committee is headed. He suggested it wouldn't be a bad idea to ensure that savings are created; just saying "coming in at the lowest level" may not provide [districts] the latitude they need. He commented that the National Education Association (NEA) may have a real concern about this. MR. ROSE noted that many school districts negotiate salaries when hiring retired teachers. Because this [proposed amendment] relates to a RIP, he suggested it may be prudent to have a provision that says, in essence, that if a district is hiring back someone who took advantage of RIP, there must be an economy at least observed there, "something to preface [those] negotiations." MR. ROSE pointed out that people who have already served in their profession are being called upon to fill this gap, which is indicative and symptomatic of another problem. He acknowledged that he was asking for more money and then said, "We're really struggling to get people into our schools." He suggested it may be more difficult to attract new teachers to Alaska than to bring retired people back; that is a problem, he said, "one that we all have to face at some point in time." MR. ROSE concluded by reiterating that districts want latitude to bring back RIP teachers, but the whole idea behind the RIP incentive was to create those economies. He suggested having an overriding statement to that effect, which would affect local negotiations, to his belief. Number 1620 CHAIR BUNDE acknowledged that the number of people that [districts] have attempted to rehire is small, but said that nothing should keep the legislature from addressing an additional tool. Number 1580 REPRESENTATIVE STEVENS recalled that at the university, people had retired out of TRS as campus directors, in the Matanuska- Susitna area, to his belief, and had returned under PERS [Public Employees' Retirement System] as campus directors there. Number 1552 CHAIR BUNDE indicated he was appointing a subcommittee to draft an amendment before the next hearing; subcommittee members would be himself, Representative Guess, and Representative Stevens. [HB 416 was held over.]
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